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Sgt Scattergun

Jailbird has asked for feedback on Bristol matches. I for one DO NOT see the need for all these new sweeps, that some folks with too much time on their hands, have come up with. An occasional Nevada Sweep is nice but where in Cowboy times, perceived actual and or B movies do any of the Cowboys, when engaged in a gun fight, shoot the far left, then the far right, then the middle and back to the next left then....bla, bla, bla. I'm pretty sure that when a hundred or so Indians attacked, the Cowboys or Cavalry shot at the best target they had or the nearest Indian bearing down on them. Sweeping back and forth would be a waste of time and not a tactical advantage. Yes, I suppose that in certain gun fights a Cowboy, if outnumbered, would try and select his most dangerous adversary first and then hope to mow down the rest. I doubt that he would spend much time sweeping back and forth. The other shooters aren't just standing there waiting for you to choose which one to shoot next. Come on...all these sweeps are getting silly. Cowboy shooting has been so successful because it's been fun and relatively simple. Bang & clang! It does not seem fair that a shooter's final results would be determined on some proceedurals because they shot steel out of order. And why should shooting something out of order add twice as much to your time than a Miss? As we've all learned, No target is too big or too close to miss. In the end the better shooters shoot it faster & more acurate and that takes practice. When I run a shooter I see these problem stages as a waste of time because so many of the shooters ask for help after the beep because they "got lost". As long as that is legal under SASS rules ya can't say it goes against "The Cowboy Way" <br />
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Well, if nothing else....this ought to start something.

Ugly

I for one, like different sweeps, albeit, I don't like built-in procedures. If the sweep is explained correctly in the stage directions (e.g. number the targets and what shot is addressed at what target) there should be no problem. Just standing and delivering and bang & clang without having to do some thinking is boring after awhile. (One match with all just stand and deliver is like shooting the same stage over and over and over again) We could call a shoot like that the "Ground Hog Day" shoot (like the movie) where everything starts over and over again. Variety is the spice of life (I think). As long as everything is mixed up and well-explained and drawn in an easily-understood manner, there should be no, or at least, few problems. Now, I realize that a lot of folks who don't travel to away matches will have been exposed to different sweeps and scenarios, well, this is a good way to see how things are done in other parts of the country. After all, this is a game. <img src='http://www.goodguysposse.org/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/diablo.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':diablo:' />

Devereaux

I would submit that perhaps the reason CAS is as successful is that it allows a relative novice to actually perform the shooting stage in a time that doesn't need the lunar calendar for measuring. The targets are friendly, and the scoring is relatively straightforward.<br />
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If there are sequences injected into the shooting, they are mostly to insure that you have engaged BOTH your trigger finger AND your brain. You can't just blaze away and do well - it would otherwise be tantamount to simply dumping your shots in the dirt, for all the skill elicited. This way you have to keep track of where you are in a stage, and where you still need to go.<br />
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Remember that there is a physical limitation to these matches, and that is that they are shot on the same ranges over and over. There is no way to make the shooting experience varied without introducing shot sequencing. Otherwise, as Ugly said, it becomes like Ground Hog Day - the same darn thing over and over and over. <br />
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As for twice the penalty for missing the sequence, it is a bigger mistake to shoot the wrong target than to miss the right target. If you think of it in that sense, then procedurals make sense. You aim at and miss a target, well, you missed. But you shoot at the WRONG PERSON (target) that is a whole different ball game!

Sgt Scattergun

A few of these sweeps could be tolerated but on the SASS web, I really thought it was a joke at first, they list 41 different sweeps. Unreal. Well, the mighty match director knows it's difficult to please everyone but there has to be limits for everything. OPSC found that out a while back when they placed the targets out at the farthest distances allowed. I believe this was about 3 years ago. The number of shooters dropped, they got the message and corrected things. What I saw on Aug. 13th when one of the new sweeps was tried out on Stage 6 was quite a confusion. Longtooth commented that it would "take a while for shooters to familiarize themselves with the new sweeps". Just how long does it take to learn 41 sweeps? Jailbird & Tex would like a big turnout for Bristol. I doubt that would happen if the average Cowboy shooter had to continuously memorize sweep after sweep. This IS a shooting sport. If one has a yearning to execise their brain they could take up chess. With other fine Cowboy clubs such as Sycamore, OPSC, GGP & others competing for shooters ( not everyone can attend shoots every weekend) a compromise of not too boring and not too exasperating, but hopefully alot of fun can be achieved.<br />
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As for Devereaux's answer to my question about why shooting out of order is twice that of a miss, I would concede your point IF SASS had "NO SHOOT" or "HOSTAGE" targets as in IPSC shooting. In SASS we shoot at ALL the targets so being out of order simlpy means you're out of order. I'm not suggesting the SASS changes it's scoring, I was just stating an opinion. Oh and Dev., if you really get bored enough to shoot into the ground, please make sure it's more than 10 ft. ahead.

Ugly

I don't think that the clubs around here are going to use too many, confusing sweeps. And the one on stage 6 was simplicity at it's finest; "shoot from the outside-in, alternating from left to right". The shot sequence was numbered to make it even easier to understand. Well, and not to be a wise-*** (that's guy), maybe I've seen a lot of them and the different sweeps don't throw me too much. But Roger, in all honesty, my experience from shooting IPSC is what makes breaking down the scenarios to their simplest form relatively easy. Just my 2 centavos.<br />
Let's hear from some other shooters on this. <img src='http://www.goodguysposse.org/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rolleyes:' />

Big Grit

I couldn't come up with 41 different sweeps if I had 30 different brooms! Big Grit

Ugly

Some few of those sweeps were duplicates with different names depending on what part of the country they originated from.<br />
I sent Jailbird some stages with different sweeps on them that should be pretty easy to do; near to far, circle sweeps, Indiana sweep, no sweep (shooter's choice), X-files sweep ('cause it's way out there), ha, ha, just kidding, everything is close and really doable.<br />
Maybe "Bird" will use them, maybe he won't, we'll see. <img src='http://www.goodguysposse.org/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/whistling.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':whistling:' />

Saguaro Kid

The thing that puzzles me is how many bad guys in the old west launched a pop can when they fell over? 8P <br />
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SK

Sgt Scattergun

Ugly my good friend, when I read your comment about Stage 6 being "Simplicity at it's finest" I almost fell over laughing. I undersatnd that you've been around the Cowboy circuit more than most of us and I admire you for it....but you'd have to have been there as the stage discription was being read & re-read and the discussion that peceeded the 1st shot. Our Posse was not a bunch of new comers. Our dedicated scorer, a lovely redhead, commented that she had a pool going on when we would actually start shooting. In spite of it, we had a good time. Hopefully we'll limit these sweeps. There are many ways to shake up the stages and alot of us don't consider it boring. That's why we get monthly numbers of 70 & even 100 sometimes.

Muddy Gap Shootist

I've only been a CAS for 3+ years so do not have the VAST experience that Ugly has. However, I agree with him. Even I get tired of the same old same old and really enjoy different stage designs, sweeps, etc. I tease Dice but his stage 6 at last weekend's Kocheese Kanyon shoot was a lot of fun and challenging. I think we need more variety, not less. Just keep the targets big and close so we can still bang some steel...

Jailbird

Howdy All,<br />
It is good to see us all "jawing" without any nastyness <img src='http://www.goodguysposse.org/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/clapping.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':clapping:' /> <br />
As for myself ---- I HATE "memory stages" <img src='http://www.goodguysposse.org/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/angry.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

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I can't remember what went on "awhile ago" , much less what I got to do later !!!!!!!!!!<br />
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I like a "blend" of stages

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some close/fast , some harder/longer shots , some stand and deliver , and some "get to the next" shooting box

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my truely favorite stages are the "weird one's" -- like ALL knockdowns , rideing a "stick pony" for the whole stage , carrying a bag of gold , etc. etc.<br />
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In my mind { not a lot there} ---- the main thing is target size and distance. BIG,BIG targets farther out are the same shooting problem as smaller targets closer in. A good stage will test all levels of shooters skill. Also , I do like a speed stage where you can measure your progress {or lack of} over a entire shooting season.<br />
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I also like stages where the targets are not all the same distance apart and are differant heights etc. In other words , I like a blend of stages to make up a whole match.<br />
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Ugly

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I did get the stages you sent -- many thanks -- Huck and I will look/talk about them in the next day or two.<br />
Jailbird

Longtooth

To the powers to be:<br />
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just purchased a new broom. Keep them sweeps a com

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in! <img src='http://www.goodguysposse.org/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/crazy.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':crazy:' /> <img src='http://www.goodguysposse.org/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/crazy.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':crazy:' />

Ugly

Just trying to "stir the pot" a bit and get others to make comments on the stages. No one will know what is liked and disliked unless people speak up. Also, if folks like certain types of stages, write a couple yourself and submit them; I'm sure the folks that do set up would take everything into consideration; maybe a few minor changes would have to be made one way or another but I'm sure any new and different ideas would be looked upon with thanks by the stage writers.

Chicago Outlaw Sider

OK lets put an end to this! Juming Jo Mama can doem all all the time with her new broom! Just ask her. Just do it when I am not near.

Sgt Scattergun

Huh?

Sergeant Smokepole

I was clean until Stage 6. I missed a target. Know what? It was my fault. I had a brain fart and I accept it. It was a touch confusing because I don't know the names of the sweeps. I need to go over it as P1, P5, P2 etc. <br />
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Bottom libe? Even though I didn't shoot clean, I liked it and had a ball. I like challenge. I shot PPC 20 some od years ago and it was always the same course of fire. That's worse than bein' with the same woman for 33 years (SLAP! Easy babe. I was just funnin'). I applaud what Tex and Bird did. It's not easy to please everyone. I will shoot whatever course of fire is handed to me.