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In this Discussion
That's a wrap! Thanks for a great season. See you all next year!
We should be shooting 2nd Saturday and 4th Sunday again next year.
Final schedule to be finalized in February.
We should be shooting 2nd Saturday and 4th Sunday again next year.
Final schedule to be finalized in February.
A simple question
<div class="IPBDescription">Where would you stand</div>Howdy Pards,<br />
<br />
Much has been made of things lately, both good and bad, so I'd like thoughts on things taken to the simplist factor.<br />
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Yes, what we do is play a game. In any game, even ours, there are rules that dictate how the game is to be played. Mostly, rules in games exist to keep the playing feild as level as it is possible to keep things. Forcing all competitors to play exactly the same.<br />
<br />
Therefor, if SASS Hq decides that a change is needed, in order to keep things the same for everyone, would you back that decision?<br />
<br />
Let me thank you in advance for your replies.
<br />
Much has been made of things lately, both good and bad, so I'd like thoughts on things taken to the simplist factor.<br />
<br />
Yes, what we do is play a game. In any game, even ours, there are rules that dictate how the game is to be played. Mostly, rules in games exist to keep the playing feild as level as it is possible to keep things. Forcing all competitors to play exactly the same.<br />
<br />
Therefor, if SASS Hq decides that a change is needed, in order to keep things the same for everyone, would you back that decision?<br />
<br />
Let me thank you in advance for your replies.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
<br />
Maybe I'm not saying this right, let me try again. First, however, lets take the light loads question out of the equasion. In that regard, SASS has already decided, there will be a change, and whatever that change will be (My understanding is that even the Wild Bunch is not yet sure how they will change things, only that they will change things.) there is no stopping it now.<br />
<br />
This then brings the point back to it's original question. Do you think that those who run this game, have the right to make changes? <br />
<br />
Baseball does it, as does football and almost any other sport you could name. Isn't it the right of the orginazation to decide, from time to time, that change is needed to better the product.<br />
Or, should they just hand over controll to the voice of those who disagree with decissions based on their own ideas of what is best for all concerned? Are decisions from the top, something you could back based on there ability to treat all involved fairly?<br />
<br />
Is that stated more clear?
<br />
In regard to your question(s), here is what I know for certain. At the Winter Range TG meeting, the Wild Bunch let it be known that there will be a change forth coming. They, SASS HQ, got tired of hearing the words--is there realy a problem. Now they have stated that Yes, there is a problem, and we're going to do something about it. (Basically, I'm not sure that even they know what the change will be yet. There are many ideas out on the table to be picked through. Also, they are currently gathering in DATA on power faactors, current specs on factory loads, and the effect of Knock Down Targets on the over all match.)<br />
<br />
The only real constant is, SASS has let it be known, that some form of change will be instituted, some time this year. Thankfully, they have, as yet, left the door open for ideas and suggestion as to the direction this change will, or might ,take. The only dorr they have closed, shut tight in fact, is the one that debates the issue, is there a problem.<br />
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Sorry, but that's all I have on the issue at pressent.
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If the powers to be are dead set in trying to accomplish something then let them propose it and let the members of SASS vote. My opinion is if it's not broken why fix it. Wimp loads, full house loads, loads with grits and loads with whatever who cares as long as it safe and everyone is having fun. <img src='http://www.goodguysposse.org/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cowboy1.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cowboy1:' />
Just my 2 cents
NO , I do not think that "we" should follow blindly whatever SASS/Wild Bunch hand out to us. If I am correct , it takes a 3/4 majority of Ter. Gov. to affect a change. I still would have liked to see a 51% and not a 75%. Also --- SASS/WB can still veto whatever the majority of the paying members want , no matter what is "voted" on.<br />
<br />
Lets look at IPSC
started by Col. Jeff Cooper {RIP} ---- after a few years , he was in the minorty that wanted that "game" to be more reality based. So , he quit and disavowed the game/child that he started. END RESULT -- IPSC has been going stronger then ever for over TWENTY YEARS without Jeff Cooper at the helm.<br />
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Don't get me wrong --- SASS is fine and I have no real bone to pick with The WB etc. But as has been said --- "they" own it and "we" are just paying customers. If you don't keep your customers happy -- soon you will not have any !!!!<br />
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Just my look at it
Jailbird { don't need no stinkin spellchecker}
Well if that's the case Tex then I'm not sure why we are going to worry about this issue. If they have made up their minds without listening or considering the vast majority of those that pay/play then there is no reason to voice an opinion. At that point we just see what the decision is and then we decide if we let our feet do the walkin. Does not sound to me like they are open much for ideas or suggestions as you stated cause the door is already closed.<br />
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I wonder what then are they going to do, to level the playing field for those props that are to tall for some of us. Or what about the props that are to short, will we all be made to wear the same boots because we don't want one guy to have faster boots than the other. Same with hats, holsters, gun belts, speed loaders,powders and so on . What about the those that don't see so well or have medical reasons for shooting lets say, lighter loads. Seems to me like SASS is just taking out the individuality. They talk about how we need young shooters, well,well ,well, enough said.<br />
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One last question, if you take out the lighter calibers or lighter loads, and say, required a 158 grain 38 caliber round nose with a 800fps velocity to be the mimimum, would it not then become the lighter load in SASS thus being unfair for those who chose not to shoot it and the circle starts again.
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That still begs the question. I get the same stuff from SASS you do, and I visit the RO2 Inst. & TG forums like you do. And while I get the sense there may be changes in store, no body knows for sure what form these changes, if there are any, may take. I've had occasion to talk to one of the Wild Bunch and get one story and a week later talked to the Judge and get a completely different story. The members of the Wild Bunch are not in agreement on what needs to be fixed or how to do it.<br />
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Are you looking to see if folks will support SASS if they make changes? Or are you referring to some rumors I've heard about some folks wanting to break away from SASS and establish a competing organization because they don't like the way SASS does things?<br />
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Me, I'll ignore the rumors and wait for the facts to be presented before I come to any conclusion.
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I woke up a little after midnight and here I am again. The gist of what I didn't post is that this, like a few other threads, is a waste of time. There ain't "no question," topic or anything of substance to decide, discuss or debate. What I find it to be is "pot stirring" with nothing to chew on after it's done. My daughter is in bed so I guess I can add my reply now and get in trouble.
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Denny,<br />
<br />
In answer to your second question first----BOTH!<br />
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Jim, <br />
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You bet I'm trying to stir the pot--as it where--and here is why. To many in SASS feel that sitting still and having a sever case of LOCK JAW is always the best course of action. When I talk to SASS HQ (A TG's job by the way) I NEED INPUT! bnasically, my opinion is just that--my opinion--not the opinion of those I represent--UNLESS THEY TELL ME WHAT THEY THINK! Sometimes, finding hens teeth would be easier. So, I get folks rieled up enouth to speak. (A representitive government is useless without people voicing their thoughts!<br />
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Lawman,<br />
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Yes, some decissions have been made, BUT NOT ALL DECISIONS. The opertunity to help in forming what decisions become law, depends on us acting in the best intrest of all shooters. Yes, the Wild Bunch gets the final say. Yet what far to many in SASS don't understand is that, currently, there is a changing of the guard taking place in the Wild Bunch. The Judge, and the General, Dutch, Tex and the rest may have founded the game, but they are now of a mind to RETIRE from it's running. Voices like, Chizler, Coyote Calhoun and other newcomers are the ones now stiring the ship. Why should the membership not speak up as to the future corse? Your view will only get heard, IF YOU SPEAK THEM!<br />
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Bird,<br />
<br />
The current trouble, I.E. wimp loads, is not one we, all the local clubs in this neck of the woods face. On the whole, this has nothing to do with what we see week in and week out. Since the Midwest folks seem to follow the spirit of the game more then most, it's not really about us, (persay) but about the future of the game. Seems, from all I've gathered in, this problem exists mostly in the south west, and then slightly in the west as well. If half of what I'm being told is true, then there are some who are taking Shotgun Primers and using only that to propel pistol rounds. Further, from only a safety aspect, there are documented reports of some fast, low power shooters, jaming three and four bullets into barrels already. I for one, don't want to be the R.O> with the timer in my hands when this moves to the inevitable conclusion.<br />
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Yes Gents, <br />
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None of us like the idea of having to deal with this. but in the end, we can't escape dealing with it. We'll get one chance to be part of some form of solution. I'd rather have some voice, then none at all.
<br />
We still need to know what changes are being proposed and how radical those changes would be;<br />
<br />
Who is proposing to break away from SASS and what would this competing organization be: 3-Gun Western? That is an entirely different type of shooting;<br />
<br />
Stirring the pot may be good, but, not to get people riled up over nothing if nothing major is going to happen;<br />
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As to the changing of the guard of SASS, they are all businessmen and they know if they get people too aggravated that the people will walk, or, worse yet, not pay yearly dues, which, in my opinion the people who run SASS are getting like the oil cartels in that they are raising the rates and we get nothing for the extra $$$: what do you get from SASS now: a cheap membership card and that's it: even if you run a state match what do you get from SASS that requires it to be sponsored by SASS; some out of date chronicles and maybe a pennant? I don't know, it sure isn't a lot.<br />
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As far as the wimp loads, let 'em pile up six in their barrels, if they are loaded the way you described there isn't enough pressure to blow up a balloon much less a steel barrel. Most barrel blockages are caused by bad reloading skills more than anything, not weak loads.<br />
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Like Lawman said, where does it stop if a low power factor is instituted? Where are you going to have the time or space to set up a chronograph and check velocities? Most clubs don't have the extra room or bays to do this. The only place I know of this happening in other shooting sports was at major matches in IPSC; I've competed in the Nationals, Regionals, Three-Gun Championships and, yes you had to have a major or minor power factor so, big deal, you loaded accordingly. In our sport we don't have the scoring-ring targets (cardboard) nor do we have the ability to change targets for each shooter for the same reason we won't be able to chronograph.<br />
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Most clubs don't require shooters to be members of SASS so, if things really fall apart as far as the governing body of SASS goes that would probably signal the end of most "large" shoots and people would just stay around home and shoot local matches. There is at least one large, popular match within easy (six hours) driving distance that is getting really fed up with SASS and more could follow.<br />
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WR had knockdown targets that were calibrated to go down with a .32 and some people still didn't knock the targets down on account of bad bullet placement; oh, well, sometimes you have to suck it up and learn to use your sights and trigger control like in other shooting sports. Knock-down plates are fine as long as there is a way to keep the level and calibrated and, again, if you're shooting something that is so underpowered that you are afraid that your bullet might not take the plate down then shame on you.<br />
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Just my own 8 cents or so worth. <img src='http://www.goodguysposse.org/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/innocent.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='
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As to what fixs are being proposed, well it's all over the board. Here are some of the most mentioned ones.<br />
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Institute a power factor---this was discussed at the WR TG meeting, with a PF of 75 a possible bottom line<br />
(In case anyone is wondering --you compute power factor thus Bullet weightX volicity(fps) divided by 1000)<br />
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Bring back a minimum volicity (fps)<br />
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The use of a DB meter at major shootes to determine vol.<br />
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Limit the smallest weight bullet to be used in all cal.--by cal.<br />
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Restrict the use of 32's to the Jr. Womens and Senior mens catigories<br />
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Require the use of KD calibrated to a minimum power factor<br />
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Require the use of KD's--and add a bonus in time for those KD that do fall<br />
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As you can see, there is much work to do yet to get anything settled. AS to the Who's thinking of splitting off, I did not suggest that anyone split off, just answering Denny's question. I want to know where folks stand, and how strongly, that's all.