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In this Discussion
That's a wrap! Thanks for a great season. See you all next year!
We should be shooting 2nd Saturday and 4th Sunday again next year.
Final schedule to be finalized in February.
We should be shooting 2nd Saturday and 4th Sunday again next year.
Final schedule to be finalized in February.
AS long as we have some time
<div class="IPBDescription">Lets do some safe thinking.</div>Howdy folks, <br />
<br />
Here's what I mean. Below will be a stage, written wrong, please read it, then pick out where safety is pushed to where you don't want it to go. Using the rules, and some commone sense, you'll see the problems. In this instance, you'd be seeing the problems before shooting the stage, so tell how you would correct them.<br />
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Round Count. 10 pistol<br />
9 rifle<br />
4+ shotgun<br />
<br />
Target posision. About 18 yards out, sits one rifle target on the left side of the stage. In the middle of the stage sits one more rifle target,in front of which, at 8 yards sit three pistol targets in a straight line, with the final rifle target off to the right of the stage, all rifle at 18 yrds. In front of the right rifle target , up closer to the line of fire, say at 10 yards, sit four knock down shotgun targets angled at about 45 degrees from the firing line.<br />
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Prop: A standard building, with a window to the left, doorway in the middle (complete with a closed door you must open), and window off to the right. As part of the prop, there is a rifle holder(vertical)fastened just to the right of the left window, there is also another long gun rack off to the right of the right window fastened to the building.<br />
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Staging: Rifle is staged off to the right of left window in rack, shotgun staged off to the right of right window in rack, pistols holstered.<br />
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Stage directions: Shooter starts with back to prop in front of the door. At the buzzer shooter draws first pistol and, kicks open the dorr, ingage pistol targets in a Nevada Sweep from the left, Holster and draw second pistol, engage targets in Nevada sweep from the right. Holster and move to the left. retrieve rifle and triple tap far laft rifle target, move with rifle to door and triple tap middle rifle target, move to right window and triple tap right rifle target. Place open and empty rifle down and retrieve shot gun. engage knock downs fom the right to the left, targets must go down. <br />
<br />
<br />
Ok folks, there you have it. Now the posse has just been read this, and before you shoot, what do you see here that is unsafe?
<br />
Here's what I mean. Below will be a stage, written wrong, please read it, then pick out where safety is pushed to where you don't want it to go. Using the rules, and some commone sense, you'll see the problems. In this instance, you'd be seeing the problems before shooting the stage, so tell how you would correct them.<br />
<br />
Round Count. 10 pistol<br />
9 rifle<br />
4+ shotgun<br />
<br />
Target posision. About 18 yards out, sits one rifle target on the left side of the stage. In the middle of the stage sits one more rifle target,in front of which, at 8 yards sit three pistol targets in a straight line, with the final rifle target off to the right of the stage, all rifle at 18 yrds. In front of the right rifle target , up closer to the line of fire, say at 10 yards, sit four knock down shotgun targets angled at about 45 degrees from the firing line.<br />
<br />
Prop: A standard building, with a window to the left, doorway in the middle (complete with a closed door you must open), and window off to the right. As part of the prop, there is a rifle holder(vertical)fastened just to the right of the left window, there is also another long gun rack off to the right of the right window fastened to the building.<br />
<br />
Staging: Rifle is staged off to the right of left window in rack, shotgun staged off to the right of right window in rack, pistols holstered.<br />
<br />
Stage directions: Shooter starts with back to prop in front of the door. At the buzzer shooter draws first pistol and, kicks open the dorr, ingage pistol targets in a Nevada Sweep from the left, Holster and draw second pistol, engage targets in Nevada sweep from the right. Holster and move to the left. retrieve rifle and triple tap far laft rifle target, move with rifle to door and triple tap middle rifle target, move to right window and triple tap right rifle target. Place open and empty rifle down and retrieve shot gun. engage knock downs fom the right to the left, targets must go down. <br />
<br />
<br />
Ok folks, there you have it. Now the posse has just been read this, and before you shoot, what do you see here that is unsafe?
Comments
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Has to do with the rifle movement. More info on "action open...move to next target" I think (and thats dangerous)
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I think that the statement "draw pistol and kick door open" is of concern. Having a loaded gun in hand and standing on one leg to "kick" open the door is NOT a good idea.<br />
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The shotgun part also leaves out anything about ending with open action and shotgun in safe condition, and then move to the unloading table.<br />
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Griz
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WE got some good safety thought here. (with one exception--Kocheese and thinking are never safe in the same sentence!)<br />
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Wyatt,<br />
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You hit the first nail straight on the head. Having the shooter face the crowd and the draw at the buzzer is a sure fired way to DQ shooters. Once that buzzer goes off, some shooter stop thinking and just react. This starting possision just begs for someone to screw up. If you want a shooter to start like this, give him something to hold, then add a spot he has to put it down in<AFTER HE HAS TURNED AROUND!<br />
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Griz brings up a second good point. A shooter , with a drawn, loaded gun in hand, has no business on only one leg. Suppose the door sticks. What happens then? will the shooter fall into it and have the gun knocked from their grasp? Will they fall back ward and brake the 170? Niether option is desirable. <br />
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Big Shooter Mike, Moving with a rifle is allowed, and as there are two SASS approved methodes of doing this, the stage writer here assumes that shooters are aware of the rules. However, you do bring up a good point. Asking shooters to move in this maner is often an invatation to be dq'ed. or gain a procedural unless clearly explained in the instructions. In some cases, Clubs have local rules that cover this, those rules, (e.g.--what is expected of the shooter) --should be stated.<br />
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But, for the sake of the discussion, lets say the shooter has reached this point without braking any safety issues. They made it around without drawing to early, and mannaged to kick open the door safely. What else is wrong here?<br />
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You've done great so far, carry it along now.
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Exactly where do you restage that rifle? In the instructions it only says there are two racks. Does the shooter have to pick up the shotgun before staging open and empty rifle in it's place? What are the chances of breaking the 170 while bent over handeling TWO long guns at the same time? This is not only poorly written, it's also poorly thought out!<br />
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While we're on the subject of long guns, and racks. Let me draw your attention to the origional staging of the rifle. "Rifle is staged in rack, attached to prop, on the right side of the left window. Ask yourself, where does that put that rack?<br />
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Answer, RIGHT BEHIND WHERE THE KICKED OPEN DOOR WILL HIT THE PROP. Now I don't know about you, but I have seen a door kicked open a time or two at a match. Most shooters really give it a good hard kick. Worse, I was at a match like this once, everything exacly like it's described. What Happened? Why the obvous of course, the door swung open hard, hit the prop, and relayed enough force to the rifle rack to knock the rifle out of it. <br />
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Talk about danger! Here is a falling, loaded rifle. Nor is there anyway to figure in which direction that rifle is going to fall. True, it is concidered prop failure, but it's still a very bad thing.<br />
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So far your doing great, but there are still a few more things to find here. See if you can pick one out.
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Since it's been a few days, let me point out the other two flaws in this set up.<br />
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Both are target placement issues. <br />
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The first one is how the pistol targets are set up. In a perfectly straight line configuration, lead hits the target aimed at, then slides in one ,or sometimes more, dirrection. If your targets line up, that deflected lead can, and often does, impact the edge of the target next to it. This configureation will often throw splatter back toward the firing line. To stop this you stager your target slightly. (so that the edges never line up.)<br />
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The other one is the shotgun targets, Turned on a 45 degree angle to the firing line, they too will throw back splatter. As the way this stage flows puts them to the right of the stage, most likely the splatter will hit the unloading table. Here, the targets should face the firing line when they are stood up. This will keep splatter that comes back to a minimum.<br />
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Thanks for taking the time to go over this, it always helps to "Think safe"
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As we still got some time left,(a few months to be exact) lets try another stage that just might rase a safety issue or two.<br />
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Stage discription:<br />
<br />
This stage, some of us have seen, though mayme not exactly this way<br />
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Props:----in the very middle of the stage sits a horse and saddle, Off to the left, there is a cactus, which also serves as a long gun stand, to the right of the horse, there is a second cactus, also a long gun stand<br />
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Targets: In front of the horse, there are three square targets, they sit out at 10 yards and are one foot by one foot square. In front of the left cactus , sitting 15 yards from the horse,at 25 yards sits another three targets, also one foot by one foot squares. The second cactus, sitting 15 yards to the right of the horse, has three more squares of the same size, out at 50 yards.<br />
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Round count:<br />
ten pistol--holstered<br />
ten rifle--staged to the right of horse on cactus<br />
6 shot gun--staged to the left of cactus<br />
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Starting posision: Shooter starts seated on horse, both hands holding the reins.<br />
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At the Buzzer:<br />
<br />
Shooter releses reins and draws first pistol, engaging the pistol target in Nevada sweep from the left. Re-holsetr and draw second pistol and ingage the pistol targets in Nevada sweep for the right. Reholster and climb off the horse. Shooter then moves to left cactus and retrieves shotgun. sweep the targets from left to right , twice. Restage the shot-gun and move to cactus on the right side of horse. Pick up rifle. engage the rifle targets in a Nevada sweep starting from the left.<br />
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Ok folks, why is this not safe. Also, this time, what is wrong with the way this stage is written.
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<br />
<br />
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Okay, first: the shooter should be off of the horse (an off-the timer operation because it could be a tremendous hinderance for handicapped, over-weight, or old or short, or, etc. shooters, plus, getting on and off with pistols in holsters is asking for a gun to be dropped) draw his pistols and engage the pistol targets from a standing position, second: all of the targets are too small per SASS rules, third: the shotgun and the rifle targets are much too far away, again, per SASS rules, fourth: the stage should ideally end with either a pistol or a shotgun being the last gun fired so the timer will be able to pick up the last shot fired, and fifth: the rifles and shotguns are staged much too far apart (far too much distance to travel).
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You got them all. This stage is what would be called a trap. This trap is a bad one to. This is not a proceedural trap, but a DQ trap. That is due to two things. First, gettting off the horse on the clock, two--not having the pistols staged on the horse it's self. Even if the pistols were staged on the horse, the getting off, as Ugly said, is a penilty to short, handycapped, and bigger shooters.<br />
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Rember, it's susposed to be a shooting contest, not a gymnastics contest. Also, the stage movement is bad. Basically a stage should flow in one direction. Be it left to right, right to left, or upstage to down stage, it is always advisable for all movement to flow in only one direction.<br />
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Sometimes, at local matchs, you will run into small targets, maybe that's all the club has available. Yet small targets, out way to far, are something that could have been avoided. If a club has to use them, use them in at minamum distances instead of out there far away. After all, everyone is there to have fun, and it's way more fun to hit targets then to miss them, especially if the shooters times could be measured with a sundial.