Toggle Link Rifles -safety Issue

dd

This was posted on the ROII Instructor wire and I think everyone needs to be aware of it.<br />
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Howdy,<br />
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The shooter that had this accident was Cypress Sam. He is a Florida shooter and it made big news around all the Florida clubs. Sam does not mind us using his name nor reveiwing exactly what happened, as it was caought on video.<br />
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Take a look for yourselves and you will see that Sam's Win. '73 had an out of battery discharge and the hammer did not fall. Sam tried to finess the lever closed and then he forced it. We have all seen exactly the same thing done and we are all probably guilty of the same sin (I know I am).<br />
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Since this event, others have said they replicated the same event using Marlin/Winchester Model 92 style rifles, so this is a problem that all shooters should be painfully aware of. Speaking of painfully, the round exploded and a fragment went all the way thru Sam's ear. It could have been his eye or the eye of the RO who was looking over his shoulder.<br />
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After reviewing this video, hope you will all consider doing as I did and as others have done as well...go pro-active. This is a definite safety issue that needs to be addressed immediatley. Make a local rule at your home club addressing this issue and then we can discuss it via the TG network to hopefully get the SASS rules changed. But, I strongly feel the time to act locally is now and get the offical ruling later.<br />
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The video link is:<br />
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http://www.bananariveroutfitters.com/video/cypresssam.wmv

Saguaro Kid

DD,<br />
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Thanks for posting that video clip. It's something to be very concious of, but some common sense that if something that has been running smoothly, suddenly stops running smoothly, don't force it. Just my opinion. You can see that he tried a couple of times before finally giving it a good yank. That's where the problem came up.<br />
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SK

dd

SK,<br />
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I completely agree! Anytime any gun malfunctions, it should be declared and checked by someone familiar with that type of firearm. Give 'em a re-shoot if appropriate.<br />
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I think we need to stress that at our safety meetings rather than simply focusing on this particular problem, lest folks get the idea that a '92 or '94 is immune to such things.

jeweler jim

Agree with both of you and would add that the cartridge could have been dug out rather than forcing it while looking down at it with your puss that close to harms way. But in the heat of the moment that's what happens. Enough blame to go around, as the timer is also partially at fault, but don't know that he was close enough or could have moved fast enough to stop the shooter. <br />
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In future, those of us that time should immediately call for a "Stop, Cease Fire" in these circumstances. Better to err on the side of safety and at worst, give a reshoot.

Tex Hewitt

Howdy Gent(and Ladies)<br />
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Have been studing this issue since I first ran across it. Here is some of what I have learned since then;<br />
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First off, this type of pre-chamberd detonation is most prevelant in Toggle-link weapons! The design of the early Winchesters is the main reason. When the push rod is moving forward,it has no form of safety that holds back the firing pin. By this I mean, it the round hangs up, outside the chamber, the continued action of the lever, CAN move the firing pin, with suffecient enough force to detonate primes, out of the push rod.<br />
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In the design, there is nothing to restrict the movement of the firing pin! This type of accident, also, seems to be more prevalent in cases like the 44-40, or 38-40, then in more straight cases like the 38 or 45. The double numbered cases are all, slightly, bottlenecked. Any defomity in that case will make it hang up as it enters the chamber. Not that it could not happen to a straight case as well, perhaph from a poorly seated bullit(to far forward with a tight crimp.) <br />
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The basic reason that this type of rifle goes off out of battery is this, force being applied to the lever exposes the firing pin while the round is hung up! What you see in the vidio, is what must be dealt with. Shooters, who's gun has jamed up, instintively drop it down to take a look at it. If force is continued to be applied in this instance, the toggle- links could go off out of battery. The shooter in the vidio was hit by some of the brass from the case. It is thought, not proven yet, that, had he kept the weapon at his shoulder level, any pre-detonation would have sent that brass above him and caused no injury. The question becomes, do you want to take that chance?<br />
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I for one, DON'T! In this instance--even if the shooter has already had one reshoot, I'd give them another one and make them ground (Or hand off) the weapon. But there is more to concider here, namely, clearing that round at the unloading table. Even here, excessive force can cause detonation. Make sure that any malfuncion of this sort is closely monitered at the unloading table. Expination of what can happen would not be out of line here! The ram rod, can be released from the shell carefully with a small screw driver, then pulled totaly back, making any detonation almost impossible. From there, either one of two methodes can be used. A rod down the bore can knock the round free, i.e. back into the carrier, followed by disasembly---or--the carrier can sometimes be droped, before hand(not to easally though.<br />
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the other method, depending on how jamed the round is, it can be slide rearward with the use of a screw driver. NOTE, be certain that the push rod STAYS fully back!<br />
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If I learn more, I'll post it.<br />
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Tex Hewitt

Longtooth

Tex,<br />
Thank you and it probably would be a good idea to demonstrate the correct method of un- jamming these rifles at the RO1 and 2 classes in the event at a match no qualified gun-smith is present.

Tex Hewitt

Dev,<br />
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You sure called it!<br />
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On the SASS Wire form there is another post with a new out of battery discharge, this time it was the R.O who was injured. In this case, the shell was a .38. Seems that there is also a danger from removing the trigger safety block. What this does is not allow the trigger to be pulled Unless the shell if fully chambered. They believe, in this case, the shooter pulled the trigger (on purpose or accidentally) While racking the rifle and pulling the unfired shell out of the chamber, most likely from trying to go to fast.<br />
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I'll keep the posse informed as I learn more.